Paternoster posted this following blog CLICK HERE to read full article
This was a very disturbing piece of literature to read from a Stake President on many levels.
1. He used the name of the sister he interviewed. If it was a fake name he would have made that disclaimer. This displays lack of confidentiality to which is his sacred duty to keep. Anyone in his stake will know exactly who she is and her bedroom practices.
2. The blog has no "warning" disclaimer in the beginning. The church is constantly trying to educate parents to filter inappropriate content from our children. Paternoster's blog unashamably describes sexual content which can be read from teenagers or children without their parents knowledge or consent.
3. Paternoster only displays a portion of the facts and indicates it as doctrine. You will find that many of Paternosters writings are his own opinions. Although in his introduction he makes the disclaimer that he does not represent the church, it was very early on and I wouldnt think many people have seen this disclaimer and just accept whatever he says as Gospel truth.
4. As the curator of his own blog, he can delete inappropriate comments that use foul language or just plain off color - actually he can delete any comment he likes. The comments under his blog are often so disgusting, the whole blog should be deleted.
So lets deal with the doctrine of LDS & oral sex.
Well first of all we need to understand what is doctrine. Only written in the standard church are actually considered doctrine.
Whenever new doctrines are to be introduced, they are first presented by the President to his counselors and then to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in a meeting of the council of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. If unanimously approved, they are then presented to the membership of the Church at a general conference for a sustaining vote.
Pres Harold B Lee stated in a conference “If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl Of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by the same token that it is false and you are not bound to accept it as truth.”
So even a declaration or letter signed by the First Presidency is not considered doctrine. It can most often be considered wise or good advise. It can be church policy, values or standards. It can very well be highly advised.
Ok so lets go through history of this subject as it seems people want absolute clarification. Some people are wishing the church would be more forthright and spell out exactly what the stand is. One brother in the comments wants the church to say if anal is ok. Before you look for absolute clarification lets look at D&C 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
This scripture encourages us to seek somethings out for ourselves, be wise and prudent. Do you need to be told exactly what soda you can and cant drink? Do you need to be told exactly what you can and cant listen to on the radio? Do you need to be told who to vote for? Do you need to be told exactly what you can do in the bedroom with your spouse? - if you do then maybe you are a slothful and not a wise servant.
Counsel regarding physical intimacy within marriage has been rare until recently. In 1978, the First Presidency added a statement to the Temple recommend questions that indicated that those who had not repented of “impure, unholy, or unnatural sex acts” could not receive a recommend. This obviously led to some uncomfortable conversations with bishops and the First Presidency released another letter in 1982 that stated that bishops “should never inquire into personal, intimate matters involving marital relations between man and his wife.” This counsel is still contained in Temple Recommend instructions.
There is no doubt that President Kimball had certain behaviors in mind when considering these “unnatural” acts. A letter that was briefly circulated by the first presidency in 1982 included oral sex to be considered among these acts. This counsel, while not officially rescinded, has not been reiterated since and is generally unknown. Starting in 1985, the Temple recommend question was simplified to, “Do you live the law of Chastity?”
President Hinckley categorized as spousal abuse the “demand [of] offensive intimate relations” in the priesthood session of 1990 April conference. Further, he stated that “You must judge within your heart whether you are guilty of any practice that is unholy, impure, or in any way evil before the Lord.” The current General Handbook (1998) states that “sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a means of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.” This, effectually, leaves the considerations of intimacy to couples and God.
To read official church policy on the Law of Chastity & sexual sin CLICK HERE
for those of you who are too lazy to move your mouse and click the link above - I'll copy & paste a segment here - I really love the first part.
Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love within marriage.
The Lord and His prophets condemn sexual immorality. All sexual relations outside of marriage violate the law of chastity and are physically and spiritually dangerous for those who engage in them.......
Merely refraining from sexual intercourse outside of marriage is not sufficient in the Lord’s standard of personal purity. The Lord requires a high moral standard of His disciples, including complete fidelity to one’s spouse in thought and conduct. In the Sermon on the Mount, He said: “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matthew 5:27–28). ....and it goes on. nothing at all about how a married couple conduct themselves in private.
One consistency you will find about the LDS church - if it is a serious problem and intended to be doctrine from God, you will hear about it over and over and over and over again.
Its very easy to show how oral sex is not condemmed by the Lord, There are more things I can copy and paste from the official LDS handbook, but let this not justify why a man might say to his wife "see its not a sin" and use it to dominate he desires over her. Reading many comments under Paternoster's blog it is evident that some spouses may feel pressured by the other. Sexual relations between man and woman need to be worked out together. If one is exercising dominion over the other to satisfy sexual desire, this may be constituted as abuse, if abuse is present, this is not in harmony with the Spirit of the Lord. My personal view if there is an unbalance in these relations is to go to a qualified sex therapist, as they can help work things out for the mutual benefit of both the husband and wife. Some people may have been a victim of sexual abuse and the other spouse would show awesome love and empathy if they understood the deep pains their husband/wife may contain within. Therapy isn't to say you are broken. Therapy is liberating. See a professional for help - your Bishop may be able to recommend and LDS sex therapist or maybe a paid LDS counsellor. LDS counsellors are paid by the church and in my experience very professional and expert in their field. I highly recommend them. Your Stake President or Bishop are called of God, but on the whole, are just men, untrained in such matters. If you feel you need professional guidance, theres no shame in asking for it. Husbands, if you feel you need a desire fulfilled but your wife cant deliver, seek the source of her issues. It will be liberating for both of you, Therapists are trained to do this.
This of course is my opinion, I do not represent the church however I have copied and pasted LDS Handbook of instructions
Paternoster states in his blog says "I asked the couple to report back in one month on their progress, after which I will be happy to sign their recommends."
To reiterate the ealier comment above 'The First Presidency released another letter in 1982 that stated that bishops “should never inquire into personal, intimate matters involving marital relations between man and his wife.” This counsel is still contained in Temple Recommend instructions.
61 comments:
By the definition of doctrine that you provided, the temple recommend interview questions and advice are not doctrine. So it seems that you are pitting two non-doctrinal statements against one another.
You also claim that if this were an actual doctrine, it would be repeated again and again. Well, here is a list of quotes on the subject. There are quite a few as you can see:
http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_oral_sex.htm
I didnt make that statement up about Church Doctrine and what constitutes church doctrine - would you like the source of it?
yes Ive seen that website before. What hasnt been repeated was the letter to the Stake Presidents & Bishops and has never been issued to us as members - what came after the letter was another letter that exists as current intructions to the leader which I repeat here.
that bishops “should never inquire into personal, intimate matters involving marital relations between man and his wife.” This is not a church talk, but in intructions Bishops & Stake Presidents have for Temple Recommend interviews.
Also repeating:
President Hinckley said in the priesthood session of 1990 April conference. Further, he stated that “You must judge within your heart whether you are guilty of any practice that is unholy, impure, or in any way evil before the Lord.” The current General Handbook (1998) states that “sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a means of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.” This, effectually, leaves the considerations of intimacy to couples and God.
"I didn't make that statement up about Church Doctrine and what constitutes church doctrine - would you like the source of it?"
Sure. But realize that it will do little to strengthen your position. After all, is that statement doctrine? Was that statement which defines doctrine sustained by the church as a whole? If not, then it is not doctrine and is only at best "highly advised".
It seems that you are simply picking and choosing what you want to consider doctrine and what you do not want to consider doctrine. If those statements were made by a prophet, how are they not modern day scripture? How is it that you get to choose which is correct and which is not? If new statements supersede old, as you seem to be implying, then was the prohibition on oral sex correct for a few years prior to the later statement?
Why should we consider Pres. Hinckley's April 1990 address to be more powerful than the letter which was signed by the First Presidency? Lastly, it seems that Pres. Hinckley in no way refutes the earlier claims as to the evilness of oral sex. He is only stating that bishops shouldn't inquire in detail about it.
Yes its a conundrum to think that a GA or prophet that establishes what is doctrine and what is not, might not actually be doctrine since the statement was not established as doctrine according to the guidlines as doctrine.
first of all I find it intriguing that you are entering this debate considering you stated in your blog that you're an atheist, but anyway thats ok.
Maybe a question would be to ask, why should we dismiss Pres Hinkleys address which remain in current publication in every Bishops office, and that letter is only passed by jpg to people. Never repeated in Stake Pres or Bishops handbook of instructions. One letter, never read to the saints, never repeated, never printed in any manual, handbook. One letter to never resurface to Stake leaders or Bishops ever again only superceded by current handbook of intruction and policy or the Law of Chastity descriptions:
“sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a means of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.”
why has it never been officially printed?
Theres more to the doctrines of Salvation than how a married couple conduct themselves in private.
Thank you for doing whats right. I'm someone who is looking into Mormonism and came across the other stake pres. blog and was horrified wondering if this crap was real or not. This clears things up and explains a lot of things. The other site looks legit and could easily fool someone who doesnt really know much about LDS. Why the heck do people feel the need to waste their time acting out like angry little kids?
Good Morning,
Your blog is great and I while you certainly don’t need my approval I approve of it all the same (and I sincerely mean that, no sarcasm). Additional discussions on my blog posts on other blogs are always welcome and encouraged.
You are also welcome to post your views on my blog in the comments. This would allow you to link back to your blog which may have further comments and insights from you and will be a good way for you to get some ‘traffic’.
My only request is that you do so with a different picture as people might get your and my comments mixed up if we look the same.
Perhaps you could find someone of a similar age and hair colour? If you do this I will always approve your comments as I do everyone else’s. I respect all opinions and insights on matters I bring up.
Your thoughts and quotes from the manual are all good and I appreciate them. As a fellow faithful member I do not consider you to be an enemy in any sense of the word. Together we will show members and investigators the truth about the one true church.
All the best,
President Paternoster
Once again, I will note that the quotes you have provided in no way cancel out the previous prohibition voiced by many church leaders against oral sex. On the contrary, it simply states two things: sex is not just for making babies and the bishop shouldn't ask any personal questions. Where in this quote does Pres. Hinckley remove previous explicit prohibitions on oral sex? As far as I can tell, he does not.
It seems that you are arguing that, since it says that people need to decide amongst themselves what is right that this means that anything goes. But I doubt that is the case.
Lastly, what are we to do with contradictory statements by prophet, seers, and revelators? I don't think these quotes contradict, but in your opinion they do. How do we decide which one to follow?
Martin,
He's not acting out like an angry kid. Instead, he is engaging in the time-honored activity of satire. He's making a joke as a way of making a point, just like Stephen Colbert.
To Michael, thank you for letting me know and I understand its a satire or spoof "now" after looking deeper in to it but the point is for those really seeking knowledge earnestly this is not the right set-up for that. Its disguised to look like an official blog and to people who know nothing about the faith after the first blog entry they leave and do not continue on to read and come to the understanding that this is a spoof site. Most do not read far enough in, just far enough to run as fast as possible. Its not an accurate site but set up to fool those passing by or at least thats what it seems like to me. If they want to be a satire or spoof thats their right of course but my personal thoughts are state that somewhere on the blog and then have all the fun you want. Dont dress it up in a pretty package and say "Stake Presidents Blog" and nothing about this being a site to poke fun. Acknowledge it and then go for it but its hurtful to many who catch glimpses of the junk that is written and move on and think that is the truth. Thats what I did....I read one blog entry and there is enough info that is correct mixed on with a small amount of crap that allows the person to believe this stake president really feels, think or teaches it. Just simply state this site is a satire and welcome people to have fun. Otherwise in my opinion yes its acting out in anger over something.
When someone watches Saturday Night Live type shows you expect it or if you go to South Parks Broadway show you expect it then its a laugh, its fun but to hide behind an official seeming site is not right. Unless thats the point is to confuse people and lead them away from Mormonism but thats not really letting them make their own choices.
I wonder by not making it obvious to people who are not LDS do they all realize how they can negatively effect peoples lives they have never met? There are consquences for every action or word put forth from us all and many we never see as they play out in the lives of others. For those playing this game...make it well known and then have fun...otherwise it could be hurtful to people you dont know....but maybe they don't care.
I think your last statement hits it directly on the head. I doubt that the author of the blog cares. Some of the best satire is that which people don't realize to be satire. It certainly says something that people actually think that there's a possibility that this site is actually written by a stake president. If the stuff he was saying was completely far afield and unlike anything you could imagine a stake president saying, then fewer people would wonder if it were real.
I think he would also disagree (as would I) regarding what is hurtful. Ultimately, that is in the eye of the beholder. I personally consider many of the teachings of the LDS church to be very hurtful. I have friends in the church who have come close to suicide because of the teachings of the church regarding homosexuality. I consider that quite hurtful. Others would not. Those in the church see that completely differently. I only bring this up to explain why what might be considered hurtful by you would not be seen as such by others.
Lastly, I don't see much difference between what this blog is doing and what the church and members actively do on their blogs. We all wish to put the best foot forward. Sadly, that means covering up all of the problems. When I was a missionary, I would tell my investigators to only look at church approved material. Such an exortation is so ludicrous in hindsight. People should look at all sources and make up their mind based upon all of the facts. If you limit yourself to just one perspective, then you're basically choosing your conclusion apriori. It'd be like deciding between buying a Mac or PC, but only allowing yourself to visit apple.com
So, the Word of Wisdom as presently taught is not doctrine?
I rather like section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants, because I like to drink mild drinks made of barley.
So if beer is doctrinal and no-beer is not doctrinal...well, that's just interesting.
Haha, where's the "Like" button?
I had never thought of that. Very good.
How about Temple Sealings. Temple Sealings are not doctrinal. There's nothing in the LDS Scriptures stating sealings are only to be conducted in temples...only the endowment is required by scripture to be conducted in the temple.
So, why are sealings only performed in temples? Why are the parents of many, many beautiful young people excluded from the marriage ceremony, if being sealed in the temple is not a doctrinal requirement?
I can think of a few reasons, and they all wag the finger at your abusive religion.
What Paternoster is doing, in a hilarious way, is trying to convince you that you are in an abusive relationship...
...If you were in a relationship with another person, and that person pulled the stunts on you that the church pulls on you, you'd at least have grounds for a protection order (if not a lawsuit), and the abuser would likely be diagnosed with at least one personality disorder.
But if the church does it, it's fine?
I think Paternoster is a genius, able to state a serious point in a way that is light-hearted. And as you may have noticed from his comment on your blog, he finds it wonderful that you've created this blog. Being angry about something Paternoster says is like being angry about something you saw on the Colbert Report, or The Simpsons.
I thank God every day for showing me the truth about the LDS church.
If you want to open a dialogue about the abusive organization you belong to, and which I once belonged to, you can find me at:
taylor_alma@ymail.com
Well Micahel, there are many things you said I agree with you on. I also wish both side (LDS and non LDS) would just be upfront and truthful. We need to have all the facts given to us in a honest manner for us to decide. There are misinformed people in every religion who feel they know their doctrine and they really don't. They go on what was passed on to them from their parents mostly and from the particular church or ward they attended. We do effect the people we are around by our words. Just like you stated about your friend. I am so sorry that your friend(s) were hurt like that. No one had the right to make them feel that way. No person, no religion.
I disagree about the blog not hurting people though. True everyone sees things differently but I have witnessed first hand the effects of junk sites. I know personally of a family who is LDS and their daughter who is around 14 has suffered from outsiders who are misinformed. If we could just take the time to understand each other better, even if we dont agree. Tolerance is needed. She is harassed at school by taunts from outsiders who read much of the information like what is given on the blog, misinformed and misnomers are spread....rumors can go fast. She is so upset that she has pulled out her eyebrows and eyelashes. Why do people not understand its ok to disagree and let it be. When you google the word mormon you come up with more junk that truth. I was doing some research on Mother Teresa and I googled her name and LDS and was sent straight to the Stake Presidents Blog. Fast and easy to be mislead immediately. His blog is just one of many but all have the potential to cause harm.
I have also witnessed LDS who really do not know their own doctrine and do not necessarily practice what is taught but again thats in every religion isn't it.
I think what Daryl is trying to do is for people like me, who were easily misinformed by just one blog entry is to show the other side to maybe alleviate potential for harm. Im searching for truths and you can waste more time trying to discern whats a garbage site or whats a misinformed member or what is good teachings then getting to what I am looking for. I still think label the site clearly and have the fun if you choose to. As you yourself said, words from others can hurt whether they are from an organized religion or those outside. The pain is still the same. To me anyway...that type of stuff is from man not from God. Humans can mess things up a lot.
Another thing I wanted to state is why does everyone feel that religion has to be so black or white and no shades of gray? I mean I will never 100% believe everything that is taught within any church or religion. We each have unique life experiences that come in to play. There are things I totally get, understand and agree with and things I don’t. That simple. I don’t feel I have to believe everything man or a prophet says. I use personal discernment. Even a Prophet is a man and can make mistakes at times. What feels right to me and whatever that is isn’t going to necessarily be right for the next person. That’s ok. I feel confident enough and comfortable enough with my own spiritual side that I do not feel I must agree 100% totally with others, whether that’s LDS or any religion. I also do not feel others need to agree with me. This is where tolerance is lacking in our society.
If there are areas you didn’t agree with my question is why wasn’t that just ok? I mean why leave the church, if you all did? Wasn’t it ok to use your personal discernment about certain aspects of the religion and still feel that The Book Of Mormon was true? Man messes up big time but that doesn’t always have to take away from the core meaning of a certain religion. Just curious.
I am sorry to hear about your friend's daughter. No one should be bullied because of their beliefs, or for any other reason. Sadly, I can also point out people who were bullied for not believing Mormonism. Just recently there have been kids who have killed themselves because they were gay and bullied. Ultimately, kids can be mean. I highly doubt a site like Paternoster's has anything to do with the bullying of your friend's daughter, just as lds.org has nothing to do with the past bullying of my friends.
As for truth, that is also in the eye of the beholder. What you believe to be true is very different from what I believe to be true.
As for why I left the church instead of just accepting that there are some areas with which I don't agree, the problem is that I don't think the Book of Mormon is true. I wasn't offended by anyone. I don't have a fragmentary understanding of church doctrine. Trust me. I have read and studied a great deal. I know church doctrine, very, very well. And that is why I left the church. I left because the doctrine put forth by the church does not hold up under scrutiny. At least, that has been my experience.
And now a question for you. Why should I stay in a church when I don't believe the core doctrine to be true?
Well that one is simple Michael, you should never do anything you personally do not feel is right or that you are comfortable with. That’s holds true for every area of your life. If you do not believe in the core doctrine (Book of Mormon) of the church you should not be in it. I am happy you were not hurt or offended by anyone and its as simple as you following your beliefs and thoughts.
I have another question out there for anyone. Why do people feel that making fun of those who are in it ok? This is where the children are getting really hurt. In a local school the teacher was asking for a list of world religions and to yell them out as he wrote them on the blackboard. Kids were saying…Catholics…Baptists,…Jewish…Islam….and so on until one said Mormons. The teacher turned around and said…”Im not writing that down, thats not a real religion” This action hurt a child that was LDS in the class. I guess I am at a loss as to the fun and teasing knowing its effecting children. I don’t care what religion you are…no one deserves to be ridiculed over their personal beliefs.
Well its true Paternosters site may not have had anything directly to do with it but some website or hateful rumor did. It all begins from somewhere. We’ll never know the direct source but it does make one think that we need to be careful of our words, thoughts and actions. Children especially are paying attention to them so its about time we as adults start paying attention to.
Its so sad that lives are lost and people can be hateful, very true. No one should be bullied into a religion or anything for that matter.
What hateful false things about the Church are children hearing?
I think the worst one I've heard is animal sacrifices are performed in the temple, which is definitely not true.
Many people define the LDS church as a "cult". I hate the fact that the word "cult" even exists. I'd rather use "abusive organization" into which we could lump AMWAY, The Boy Scouts of America, and other so-called cults.
It is sad that children have to be confronted with other people's perceptions from time to time. Oh wait, no it's not. I didn't even know most of the world thought Mormonism was "strange" until I went on my mission.
I don't think people have to be hateful to be truthful. Fortunately, Paternoster is not being hateful, nor is he giving false information about things the church does or has done in the past.
If you want to do harm to people, shield them from many of the facts that could help them make informed decisions. Don't let them know where you spend the money they gave you. Don't tell them important facts about your history. Tell them they can only accept information that agrees with your reality. Punish them for questioning your reality. Tell them that people who don't agree with you are their persecutors. Make them so busy they don't have time to think. Give them a mental script so they all sound exactly alike whenever they talk. Make them work tirelessly to be worthy of you while simultaneously making them accept your worthiness without any question.
That's how the church harms and abuses people, millions at a time. And just like an abused spouse, the rest of the world looks over and says, "Why doesn't she just leave that jerk."
So, tell me why you don't leave that jerk?
Or, at least tell me why the jerk you allow to abuse you is worthy of such an honor.
taylor_alma@ymail.com
Once again, I am sorry for the experience of this child in this local school. I cannot speak for the actions of every single person in the world. People do stupid things. Do you honestly think that Mormons are the only ones who experience problems of this nature?
Any time a particular viewpoint is held by a majority of people, those not holding that view tend to be treated adversely. This has nothing to do with false information or anything like that. Do you think that segregation in the South was because someone was posting mean things on a website? Obviously it was not.
Take me for example. I am very opposed to the teachings of the church. I agree with much of what Al Taylor says. That said, would I ever do something like the teacher in your example? No. Would I ever prohibit my child from playing with a Mormon friend? Definitely not. Would I avoid helping my neighbor because he's Mormon? Once again, no.
Prejudice and intolerance is not born out of knowledge. It is born out of ignorance. It is born out of not knowing someone who fits the given profile. I guarantee you that most people who dislike Mormons know nothing of their beliefs. I suspect they don't even have misconceptions about Mormon beliefs, they just don't know anything.
Also I never said shield people from facts if you look at what I have written I have been saying truth is all that should come out. Some is going to be ugly and some is pretty amazing. Pretty much how all of our history goes in the world. But its truth from ALL sides not just one. Right now I’m looking at a lot of garbage from non LDS and LDS. Its not worth it for these kids or for Michaels friends is it?
Oh and my opinion anyway racism in the south was breed out of ignorance and ignorance is spread many ways….passed on through generations, word of mouth spreading lies that feed the fuel of stupidity. If there would have been internet at the time I bet that would have fed the fire too. Humans found plenty of ways to pass on stupidity before the internet, the world wide web just made it quicker.
Another big problem is that you and I have a different definition of truth. You believe that truth will remove people's belief that Mormonism is racist. Are you also speaking to the truth of the racist things that have been said by Brigham Young and John Taylor? Or should we conveniently not mention those things? Perhaps people have actually done research and do think that Mormonism is wrong. Have you considered that? Just because you think it's true doesn't mean that everyone else does.
As for your stories about this person or that who thinks Mormons are evil, do you honestly think that these people will be persuaded differently if they had more correct information? These are ignorant people. These are people who don't just hate Mormons. They also hate Muslims, Catholics, Atheists.
In fact, I assure you that Atheists are far more reviled than Mormons. I have definitely experienced that having been on both sides of the fence.
Here's the end of it. Paternoster is not going to stop posting because you don't like it. If you don't like it, I advise you to not read it.
Excellent. I'm glad that I was wrong in my assumption as to our opinions of what constitutes truth.
I think the problem with someone like Brigham Young is that the church still asserts that he was a prophet of God. What then are we to make of his revelations and teachings. If he was a prophet, how is it appropriate to dismiss his teachings? I am sure that your argument would be that even prophets are fallible. But how then are we to differentiate between what was revelation and what was just his incorrect opinion?
As for the horrible things that are said about atheists... meh. People are going to say things. There's nothing I can do to change that.
it seems like my comment above you disappeared? I dont see it anymore...if it reappears sorry for repeating myself but it went something like this--------
I know all about Brigham Youngs and others racist comments and I do not agree with it or like it…I actually hate it. There is so much more to the truth then even that and it is EXACTLY the things I would love to see come forward. These are the things I keep repeating I would love to see brought out. I will never defend a racist comment by a man and a bit surprised after my other remarks you thought I was. Why do you think my truth is so different then yours? I mean our beliefs can be different but truth is truth whether its good or bad that plays no part of it.
As for these people who you feel must be ignorant and judgmental of all. I suppose a few may be but I am going to tell you that a few are not that way. A few are dear friends and I have not ever seen them display ignorance or hatred. When I first started to look into Mormonism they, I think out of protectiveness for me, began to look into it too. They had heard rumors growing up but didn’t know much more then that. Well a couple found this stuff on internet sites and confronted me with their concerns and beliefs based on what they had read . Now not that this matters but these are educated kind people. One is an African American school teacher and she shared her concerns with me dealing with the racism.
I do not believe the “church” is racist but I do believe many in the past and current have been or are racists….the people are, not the church. Yes B. Young was definitely a racist and there are a few more I could mention who were too. I do NOT believe in the story of Cain either. Im not sure you could really know from our few conversations what my exact beliefs are so how can you imagine to know what my truths are or what my definition of truth is? By the way, I do not feel Joseph Smith was a racist.
I am sorry you have had to deal with harsh criticisms being an Atheist. I have said before I believe no one should go through such judgments and tolerance for all is needed.
I also know I might not influence others words and thoughts….who knows I might. But I can not stand by and say nothing if I feel strongly about something either. I think I sometimes say things out of frustration trying to protect people who get hurt.
I guess the same could be said for others…. since I also have a right to say what I want…if people do not like my words they too have a choice…don’t read it.
Well Michael, yeah you are right about them being fallible and me probably saying that. For me, I use personal discernment. I do not feel a need to necessarily believe all and every word out of a prophet since like you said…are they talking as man or a prophet? I wait for the Holy Ghost and feelings. There were a few issues in Mormonism I never got those warm fuzzy feelings over. …The ban on Blacks from priesthood and polygamy. I mean who the heck could? I know they are of man and not of God. But that doesn’t change the fact I still believe in Joseph Smith. He had nothing to do with the ban that happened after his death. I do know that he was responsible for the polygamy and that was wrong, again it was of man and not God. These are just my opinions based on what I have learned. There is so much more to the story then this. It goes so much deeper then what many know.
Its like the bible, written by man and missing chapters so you need to use discernment there too but you know all of that. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, it means parts are wrong and that’s ok. We all will find out the truth someday and man messes things up a LOT. Still I can only go on my promptings , feelings and studying . I do not think questioning weakens a man's faith but strengthens it. I don’t worship humans so in my head its ok they make mistakes I just want to know about them if possible. I think the problem many have is they feel the prophets words are all gospel truths. Well in my head and heart its not true but that doesn’t mean I cant believe in the book of Mormon. Everyone needs to use their personal perceptions.
Of course, this brings up the inevitable question of why God apparently tells different things to different people. After all, don't you think that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith probably prayed before practicing polygamy? Of course they did. JS even received revelations on the matter. Why has God told you that it was wrong, but not JS, BY, and so forth?
Homosexuality and Prop 8 is another good example. I have friends who, when they pray, feel in their hearts that the church is wrong on the issue of homosexuality. I have other friends who did the same thing but received the answer that homosexuality is wrong and that it is imperative that they support Prop 8. Why are these two groups asking the same question, but getting different answers?
Well just my opinion but I dont think Joseph Smith prayed about polygamy before it began. I have thoughts as to why it happened and it had nothing to do with God.
I think other prophets prayed about the ban on blacks many years after it began and I questioned why did it have to wait until 1978 to give the priesthood to African Americans. I feel it started out of racism and not of God and as to why it took so long I can only think of a few possible answers.
Sometimes I think when men make mistakes and wrong choices we are meant to learn something from them....lessons. God lets us find solutions and work things out if we can. Kind of like we screwed up, now are we strong enough to fix it? If he made life completely easy and perfect what could we possibly learn here on earth? I do believe its part of our journey.
I have also wondered why do we all pray and ask the same questions yet get different answers. I feel that maybe we all need answers at different times in our lives and what is needed for one on their path is not necessarily what is needed for another. I feel we can be directed and have our own unique paths to take to find our way to where we are meant to be. That being said I guess you can see in that, that I dont necessarily think there is only one way to have a personal relationship with God.
I know these struggles and trials we all go through shape who we are and from that we can learn so much. I have a friend who belongs to no church at all but is very spiritual. Every time something bad happens to her, and she has had some awful things happen, she says I wonder what blessings I will get from this. She not only allows herself to grow from the bad things but embraces it as part of her journey. Smart woman and not an easy thing to do.
I have looked deeply into each area that upsets me...actually written papers on each. Every area I have an issue with and there are more then the 2 I mentioned, once you dig deep enough and ask the right people you find that most of them if not all were from man and not of God. You know what...Im ok with that....I already knew man screws things up so it did not shake my spiritual foundation....actually strengthened it. I knew those things were not of God, not the God I knew. He did not say or do those things.I don't hold God accountable for mans stupid mistakes. I do believe in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith but there are things in the past that are plain wrong.
I dont have all the answers Michael, not by a long shot, but I keep searching for truth and understanding.
No offense but you sound like one of those stay LDS people who justify everything you do because you lack either the faith or the obedience to follow the teachings of the church. And yes I meant to say teachings. When do you ever hear us being asked if we follow the docrtines of the church? From as young as nursery age on up it's the phrase "teachings of the church that we use".
A concerned LDS
I'm grateful for your humility. I too don't have all of the answers. Just like you, I never will. But I keep searching for truth wherever it can be found.
You state that you don't believe Joseph Smith ever prayed about polygamy. What then do you make of D&C 132? This section purports to be a revelation from God on eternal marriage and polygamy. Do you think this section is a lie from Joseph Smith? And, if so, how do you now that the other stuff he wrote isn't a lie as well?
To the concerned LDS – if you are real or a spoof (sorry but seriously sometimes hard to tell anymore)
So if, as you say, you aren’t asked to follow doctrine then what exactly does doctrine even mean to you? Not much? Well then if that “is” the case.… D &C section 132 has some issues I do not believe in so that must be alright since you do not follow it but follow only current teachings….correct?
So you see you are almost correct on your one point. But its not faith or obedience I lack. My personal faith is strong and I am obedient to my Heavenly Father. I plain flat out do not believe some of the things in the past that have happened. Well let me clarify I believe they happened but not for the reasons given …it wasn’t of God.
Also I am not justifying my reasons for anything just sharing my beliefs…big difference. No one has to believe what I do. Not trying to prove I am right just sharing. I am right for only me and where I am in my life. You should not follow anything but your own personal feelings and thoughts.
As I sit her thinking there are times I might try and persuade people and this is when I see they are being hurtful to others. I wont try and change their beliefs, that’s something personal between them and God but more their actions.
Michael, I think there are written and oral words and things that came about that were either lies or earlier prophets had trouble with personal discernment. I do have my own thoughts as to why the lies came about which I have written in many journey entries over the last 10 months. Also do you know when you receive an answer from God on something and sometimes you think “ was that of God or myself?” I mean we have all done that I think. Well I believe this happened for them too. Why couldn’t it they were human? Well Joseph Smith himself said he had guidelines to help him discern. It shows that its wasn’t always easy. One mistake, again my own personal opinion, no one has to believe it…is that people almost put the prophets on a pedestal that no human can live up too. When this happens they can’t even fathom a mistake was made. Joseph Smith himself said do not worship me. Now before I get jumped on by some, I don’t think LDS worship him at all but I do think they don’t allow him to be human and along with being human comes some pretty stupid mistakes by many of the prophets. Again “mistakes” in my book are not always going to be mistakes in others and that’s ok…different journeys.
Awesome Michael…keep searching for the truth.
So, if Mormon scripture contains a few grievous errors (i.e. polygamy), how are we to trust what is correct and what is not? We are taught that the scriptures are the standard against which we are to judge modern revelation. But if we cannot trust in the scriptures, in what can we trust? You argue that we can trust in the voice of God as given to us in response to prayer. But you openly acknowledge that even someone like Joseph Smith was highly susceptible to misinterpreting the words of the Lord. How then do you have confidence that what you are interpreting as answers to prayer are actually answers from God? How do you know the Book of Mormon is true? How do you know the church is true? How do you know anything is true whatsoever?
Sorry the comment was directed at the blog post not your comment. I hadn't read the comment section yet.
I was always taught never to criticize a leader. I know they are human and make mistakes but I don't think that is a reason to not take their council seriously. When we talk about them being "human" I think it is referring more to things in their personal life not things they say over the pulpit. I don't understand everything about polygamy or the ban on blacks but to say that was not from God is just a little bold. If the prophet (at the time of what ever the issue is) felt it was from God then either it was or somethings wrong here. Your statements are very well thought out but I bet you wouldn't be comfortable saying those things in Sunday school.
Concerned LDS
Well that’s simple for me….its a personal experience with God and each individual must use their own personal discernment. . What I believe is what is right for me. You know what I am finding out the more I talk to people and in this case LDS. Those who grew up in the religion have a very black and white way of looking at things…no shades of gray. Not all but many. Where I was raised in a spiritual way and no organized religion or at a least not much. So I must seem very different to them. My life has been spent finding my spirituality and not concentrating so much on doctrine, prophets, leaders, and I was told that the Bible has been revised many times. There are missing books and written my man and we must ultimately rely on the Holy Ghost and that relationship I have build with God when reading. Much different from being raised in an organized religion of any type.
So when you say “How then do you have confidence that what you are interpreting as answers to prayer are actually answers from God? “ Well Michael this life is full of paths and struggles and we each need to do what is right for us. Remember when I said I don’t have all the answers? Well I meant it I don’t. I have whats right for me, what feels good in my heart for me to live by. That’s all we can do isn’t it? We search, ponder, study, pray and do the best we can. I can’t believe or do something I feel is wrong in my soul. No matter if any leader said its so. I have to live by what is right for me and its not going to be whats right for the rest of the world. Im ok with that.
How do I know the Book of Mormon is true? Well I felt a connection to Joseph Smith and when I would read from the book it felt right. I have asked myself different questions throughout this time…like, in my head and heart it makes since that Christ would visit other places on earth, why wouldn’t he? Also when you say “We are taught that the scriptures are the standard against which we are to judge modern revelation.” You were taught that growing up I wasn’t. I was taught man messes up a lot be careful and use discernment and that ultimately God is just and loving and knows whats in your heart. What you are raised with really shapes who you are and the paths you choose and see.
It’s a path I have taken and I feel good and right about it. But you know what? If I someday find out that much of what I believe to be true is wrong….I will be like wow really? That’s what happened? And I will be ok with that. I don’t have an arrogant way of looking at things and say…whats wrong with you people cant you see what I am saying is right? I feel I am doing the best I can to lead a life I feel is in accordance of God. No matter if I am right or wrong this is the bottom line….God knows my heart and my intentions…the rest is just earnest seeking. Do the best you can.
The black and white issue that people have where no gray can exist is something I cant wrap my head around. I try. But I keep thinking whats wrong with an honest history of our past? Its never a good idea to suppress unflattering information I think this is what happens. People doubt everything then. Can’t truth be inspiring too?
To concerned LDS
Its ok, things can get confusing when talking to others. I have given my writings to Elders and discussed them with a Stake President…..a real one…haha :) I have no problem with someone coming up to me and me sharing my beliefs. If asked to share what I have found out I would definitely share my beliefs I'm not embarrassed of them if that’s what you mean? I would if asked but you are right I don’t actively seek out people and try to convert others to think like me.
About saying the ban on blacks is not of God and a bold statement. Well in a sense it is a bold one. I cant change my feelings though. The God I know did not curses Cain and every generation with black skin….and then in 1978 they are no longer cursed? I watched a wonderful video online about black mormons and listening to them speak. There was this one woman who said in 78 she finally knew how much God loved her….broke my heart that she didn’t know that before and over something that should have never happened. To me when someone says there is darkness or lightness about them its in a spiritual sense. Like a white person can have a skin of darkness over him. You know when people say they are thick skinned? They really don’t mean your skin is actually thick. Also I have learned a few things about the history and how it actually was started and why it was never written down or doctrine but “practiced”. There is an amazing man named Alonzo Gaskill who wrote “Odds Are You’re Going To Be Exalted” and many of his writings have really shed light on what actually happened. Historically what happened. He is head of scriptural studies at BYU. Interesting fact about him he was an anti-mormon and now is a Mormon. I think many would find his book interesting even if you don’t agree with it. He has a wonderful way of looking at life.
I have lots of work to do and these blogs can take a lot of time huh. I might be back but life isn’t waiting and I need to get busy. I got a lot out of this, thank you and never stop searching and in the end God is just and loving….try your best and he see’s your heart and soul.
But, if there is a God, why is he telling you something different from what he is telling others? It defies explanation as to why God is sending different messages to different people. And how you would be better equipped then everyone else to understand God's will is also confusing to me. How are you so gifted as to get the interpretation right when so many others have not?
So we can approach the church from a logical, scientific perspective. If we want to find out what is actually true, then we must ask questions like the above. But there is another way of examining spirituality.
I affirm that the most important thing is what makes you happy and helps you live a good life. Strangely, things that are not necessarily true can still be beneficial in one's life. And if the church is a positive influence for you, that's great. It doesn't matter if it's true. I know that the church helps my parents be happy and find meaning and purpose. As such, I am happy for them as they serve missions and serve in the church.
For me personally, my mind has a difficult time disconnecting from truth and an analytical, rational examination of truth. As such, I cannot be happy in church. I've tried.
But, since it does make you happy, more power to you. (I mean that sincerely)
I can tell you are sincere Michael thank you. I wish you the best on your journey too Michael.
I am happy where I am. Its in a personal spiritual place that I am. Maybe there are some inside church who might say I am lost, I think differently on some issues then they do. That’s ok. I agree with you that we all need different things at different times in our lives. I see many who are so happy in church and are amazing kind people probably much like your parents you described. I see others who are outside of the church who too are amazing kind people and I do not feel they are lost.
I don’t feel or profess I am better equipped or have a better ability to interpret or a gift as you say then the next person. Its in us all. As to why some may not use it? Not sure, for some I feel that maybe, just maybe they put up blocks or a wall for reasons….just a thought. I feel frustration keeps many from it. We all can use the gift of discernment to feel what the Holy Ghost is saying or leading us to. What is right for one is not the same path as another. We are unique and have different lessons or paths to get to those lessons along the way.,,,thus our different answers. My thought anyway, some might have way better answers.
I have a dear friend who is somewhat like what you described for yourself Michael. She was raised in the church, her father was a Bishop . She can not accept some of the things that are taught but sees beauty in others that are taught. So she does not attend church any more. She feels she can’t. Others criticize her for being a lost soul. I don’t understand why some hold the belief that if you think at all differently you are no longer a part of the church or that your soul is now lost. She is one of the most enlightened people I know…. She is not lost. I feel that some just because they attend church regularly and follow all the rules or go through the motions but with an empty heart are more lost then this dear woman. I really don’t like using the word lost though…its just we are on different parts of our paths. Eh anyway it helped to describe a thought I was making.
Daryl:
Whether it's canonized or just the interpretation of 4 sustained prophets, seers, & revelators makes little difference to me.
Either an unreasonable god via inspiration or the human wisdom of 4 unreasonable old men chosen by god to lead his church on the earth, the message is the same: women don't deserve orgasms unless they're the 20% that can get them from intercourse. This is perhaps the most extreme way in which the so called church makes it clear that the men rule and the women are only there to serve the men.
Offensive!
Martin:
Your views on the church are interesting. Since it seems you accept maybe half of the church as true (and the rest mistaken at best, fraudulent in some cases), I'm wondering what you do about tithing. 5% instead of 10% since it's only 50% true?
For me, it was like a Jenga tower where I'd pull out a Jenga block each time I found some church claim or teaching was false. Pretty soon, the whole tower came crashing down.
Things make a lot more sense now that I've stopped trying to rationalize all the contradictions.
I wish you luck in your quest for truth.
--RB
Martin,
You are one of the more humble and reasonable True Blue Mormon blog commentators that I have read recently. In my personal experience of reading blog comments I have found many of the TBM's to be as condescending and unkind as the worst of the Anti's. You do not fit this mold.
I salute you in your maturity that many others lack.
You are too reasonable to stay with your current beliefs for long. If I was to guess I would guess that you are fairly young, perhaps 25-35. In time you, like me, will likely find that the above reference to Jenga is good.
Mormon's are typically good people. Their actions are good and the doctrines that the choose to emphasize are typically good (though not always).
The problem is they have bad habits of covering the past. When it can't be covered they justify it. When it can't be justified they forget it or scream at the messenger.
Just look at the example of Daryl, who started this blog. He seems like a good man that believes strongly in what he preaches but the definitions that he shares for "doctrine" simply do not work. The definition itself would not be doctrine and therefore not binding but Daryl, as devoted as he seems to be to defending the church, has no valid response to that. Yeah, it's easier to defend the church when you refuse to accept "doctrine" that is not Ensign type material but when you only choose to fight statements of the last 5 years what does it say about the backlog of 150 years of intolerance, prophet worship, racism, elitism, and many other terrible teachings.
My warning to you is this Martin. If the church is more important to you than truth then leave these online discussions. I can tell from your comments that you are not closed minded enough to get involved in these discussions without eventually being changed. You admit to problems, this will eventually get through to you and cause you to change your views.
People like Daryl are safe in the blogosphere because, and I truly do not intend this to be offensive, he does not consider the other side. He does not allow reason to get through to him and therefor he will probably be defending the faith until he dies. You seem different to me. If you love it more than truth leave the blogosphere behind.
Some time back, Elder Oaks likened the church's "only faith-promoting history" policy to a court case. The church leaders and teachers are the counsel for the church: it is not their responsibility to tell the whole truth; they must present only the facts and arguments most favorable to their client.
But Oaks didn't carry the analogy to its logical conlusion. You are the judge and jury. You will have to look outside the church to get the other side of the story (i.e., the facts and arguments less favorable to the church). And you have the reponsibility to consider both sides, to look at all the evidence, weigh it for credibility, consider which side has the stronger case, and decide on the truth and justice.
I have done this, and I found the evidence against the church much more complelling than the case for it.
Unfortunately, we members, former members, and investigators are not impartial as a judge and jury are supposed to be. We have biases, typically very strong ones; so we must work hard to acknowledge and overcome them.
A very common and problematic bias is called confirmation bias; it's our tendency to seek and accept only information that confirms our existing beliefs. If we want the truth, we must consciously seek information that is against our preconceived beliefs and consider it with an open mind. (And if we end up changing a belief, we must look again at the other side to make sure we don't start suffering from confirmation bias in the other direction. Keep considering evidence from both sides with an open mind. Only then can we fairly conclude where the truth lies. We must always be open to new information, always willing to change our minds if compelling new information comes to light.)
I wish you luck in your quest for truth. And I wish you strength of character after you've discovered it to act upon it despite the opposition, despite the discomfort.
--RB
RB,
Great post. It is all about finding truth any way we can.
Daryl,
I applaud you for allowing the comments you have. Many of these comments are not supportive of the church or what I assume are your views yet you have allowed them to be published. I would like to give you an internet pat on the back. I just wish the leaders at the top of the church had such views.
TuNeCedeMalis
I have really enjoyed your comments Martin. I'm not sure how old you are or how new you are on this journey of yours (finding out there are things in Mormonism you are OK with saying were/are wrong). Perhaps you have succeeded to enter into fowlers stage 4 of faith.
I am curious to how you are received by other members of your ward or branch. How comfortable do you feel in lessons that may teach things or perceptions that you disagree with? How comfortable are your leaders with you holding teaching callings?
Honestly if most Mormons were like you I would have a much easier time staying active (which I currently am). Right now I am scared to let very many know what I really think, especially my leaders. I told a family member once that I believed anything anyone says regardless of what their position in the church was, was just their own opinion and that I don't believe in following anything I don't feel to be right. His response to me was that I must believe the church is false then and so I should "pack my bags and leave".
If anyone has any thoughts on how one can be true to themselves and still be an active member of the church with out having their name "too badly" slandered by others I'd be happy to hear it.
Micheal, your augments were also excellent. You raised some very important concerns many face with religion in general. Much of my thinking is similar to yours and part of the reason I struggle with Mormonism. But I was raised Mormon and have always been very involved and not sure if I'm ready or willing to walk away.
To the owner of the blog. I'm not sure if this is what you had hoped to accomplish but I have to say I think it's great to have discussions from "both sides" done in a respectful manner. I know that places like StayLDS and New Order Mormon have discussion boards for this but they do not allow for "TBM's" to get on their sites and I think this discussion here allows for what they can not.
Rose:
Postmormon.org has a message forum that invites TBMs as well as former Mormons. You will find some threads have their share of anger, but it's generally welcoming and respectful of TBM people (if not the more extreme of their beliefs).
You might give postmormon.org a look. I haven't visited staylds or nom; so I can't compare them directly. But I am sure that postmo specifically states that TBMs are welcome.
On the topic of how to avoid being harshly rejected by the members if you don't believe all of the dogma, consider this. Joseph Smith stated that any revelation he received the lord would also reveal to the 12 and down to each individual member of the church. More recent church leaders have stated that members have the privilege (and even obligation) of receiving personal confirmation about anything the leaders teach, e.g., in conference talks. So, if you seek personal revelation confirming any gospel teaching and do not receive a confirmation of it, you can conclude that the leader teaching that principle was speaking only as a man and not revealing a doctrinal principle. If questioned about your own beliefs, you can reply that you have followed Joseph Smith's and other leaders' advice and as a result concluded that topic XYZ is not right for you.
--RB
Though I've been accused otherwise I am actually a very active LDS, who recently baptised his new wife & her parents
The side affects of this blog has been quite healthy and unintentioned.
Thankyou for commenting and sharing your feelings & thoughts.
I used to be a mormon that blindly believed that what ever was said by a leader had to be true. And was also taught that you never question a leader. Im thinkin that sounds more like military. Anyway When I became more educated on the facts I found Pres Paternosters blog quite disturbing on many issues. Satire or not, I discovered that people are actually looking for authorative answers onlone and were being lead by some "fascist" comments - thats my view anyway.
I recently read an awesome book by Alonzo Gaskill called "Chances are youre going to be Exalted" it was very liberating and strengthened my faith in the atonement and for the first time really appreciated and felt joy in the Plan of Salvation and what Christ did for us, I highly recommend it. You can read it in under 4 hours.
Its not widely known, (I dont think he wants people to know) Alonzo used to be anti mormon actively campaigning against LDS and its teachings. My friend later baptised him and now he works as the Head scriptorian for BYU.
When read his book and realy understood the Atonement and the Plan of Salvation, I saw many blog articles of Paternoster which disturbed me greatly and sought to correct some of the things he was stating. I immediately got branded a anti mormon from those who believe everything that comes from a leaders mouth, even though I was actually quoting LDS handbook of instructions.
The message that you'll see me write as I correct some opinions Paternoster calls doctrine, is that many more people will return to our fathers presence than most people realise. Common LDS view is that not many will make it. However if Good should triumph over evil, if not many make it, then that would make evil triumph over good.
I have learnt recently that the struggles we have with certain doctrines arent really all that important. When i comes down to it, whats really required of us is to do our best, the best way we know how. Then the grace of God will kick in later to give us the rest of the help we need.
I have no problem with anyones current belief as long as they strive to do their best. If youre a head hunter, and you believe that hunting heads is the right way to go about life, be the best head hunter you know how. The truth of the doctrines of Salvation will be revealed to you at some point and it may not be in this life.
I believe that all of us are doing the best we know how and my blog is a move to be anti Paternostic point of view of such strict teachings that dont seem Christlike at all. subjects that I will address from his blogs are the Black & polygomy issues amongst others. I actually dont like the views at all that a lot of LDS feel "our way is the only right way" and seem to pursecute people who think differently. How are they any better than those who persecuted the saints? same song differet title.
I may not be right, I might be 100% wrong but I do feel that I need to create a balance of information. I think in some ways some of Paternosters views could actually be considered anti mormon. Im not anti Paternoster. But anti some of the views that he shares as fact. That is what I aim to address, but the human side comes out and I might make sarcastic remarks against him....my bad
However its made everyone think. I know I didnt do much thinking at all till recently
Thank you for your healthy participation, I hope you feel safe in sharing here
TuNeCedeMalis
Thank you and I sincerely can tell you have genuine concern and that meant a lot to me. Well 25 – 35 sounds great ☺ haha but actually I am closer to 50 and my name is not Martin. Sorry but I use my animals names a lot online for security reasons I guess, kind of silly huh? My name is Amy so Martin or Amy is all great ☺ I am a wife, mom and grandma.
I think I mentioned before I was raised without organized religion and that’s how we raised our daughter but have been spiritual all of my life, well as far back as I can remember. I have only been a Mormon for a few months but have meet with missionaries and attended or ward for approx 10 months. . I have been called a New Order Mormon and not sure if that’s what I am or not since I haven’t really looked into it much. I may be. I like to think I’m just me, never liked labels.
When I started reading and studying Mormonism I knew immediately there was things I would never agree with. I also knew there was things I agreed with whole heartedly. You want to know what was weird? The fact that many of my beliefs were actually similar in ways to Mormonism. I have always believed in a pre-existence for example. You are right Mormons are some of the sweetest people I have ever met and carry many of the same values and principles that I do. I do believe that if you believe in Christ, which I do of course why doesn’t it make sense that he would visit other people around the world? I personally thing there may be other books hidden in other places even. Who knows huh.
You want to know what? I struggled so much with the ban on blacks and polygamy…well truthfully I have struggled with organized religion all my life. I decided something, that I don’t have to believe 100 percent in everything a particular faith says is so. If I find a place that feels like home and I agree with many things at least the current teachings then I can be there and keep searching on this journey. If others cant accept me well that’s ok too. I’m too old to worry about that. ☺
Daryl is actually very open minded and I have seen him teach a few things in a class that made me very proud. He handled an issue that was bothering me where many people can seem judgmental and this is in EVERY religion. Well I didn’t like how other people are made to feel bad about wearing a cross or having piercings and tattoos. Not that this grandma has any of the things mentioned but I believe for those who want to they should and with pride. He lovingly taught that we accept and love everyone. Well you see I am very proud of who he is and he is my son in law ☺ He is actually one of the most non-judgmental people I know.
part 2 to follow
Part 2
Daryl has been LDS all his life and I don’t want to speak for him but I think as he has watched his wife (my daughter) and I on this journey he has learned a lot too. You know I was so upset concerning these past histories that seem to be almost hidden in hope they go away but they wont and they need to be addressed. All religions have terrible pasts, goodness just read some history books huh. Well one night I received from a good friend of Daryls writings from Alonzo Gaskill, head of scriptural studies at BYU. He talked about the ban on blacks and what he wrote was exactly what I felt happened. It was of born out of racism, of the time, and nothing Joseph Smith ever said or taught and during a time period where there was no president of the church. Actually there was a period of 16 months were there was no leader. Racism was strong during this period of history and that was in all religions. The story is too long for this note but I just wanted to say I can accept the knowledge that humans are stupid at times and that doesn’t shake my faith. I can accept I don’t have all the answers but I will keep searching. And I believe there is beauty everywhere around us and we need to find it and hang on to it. I see beauty in all enlightened teachings and just because I am LDS that will not stop. Since I have studied so much over these last 10 months my faith has gotten stronger. It made me see the bigger picture and how we are all Gods children no matter what race or religion.
I do understand what you are saying about prophet worshiping, it can seem like it at times anyway. I also understand what you mean by the intolerance, racism and elitism. I have seen it all but I have seen it all in other religions too. My personal relationship with Heavenly Father is my strength, always has been. I think because I wasn’t raised in the church or any church for that matter I can much more easily accept that things aren’t black and white but many beautiful shades of gray.
So basically, Im not Martin but my fish was ☺ I am a grandma and I found out all the bad stuff hidden in the past and came to terms with it as “stupid” humans and then joined the church. I’m kind of an odd Mormon huh? ☺ I was reading the bible tonight and goodness I have issues with that too. Talk about man messing up everything. But you know what, my faith and spirituality can still soar. I have seen too much in my life, I know there is more and what a journey we are all on.
To all of you I sincerely wish you so much happiness and never stop searching. We all have so much to learn still ☺
To RB,
Yes, you are right…I do agree with what you have said and very well said too. I do believe the church has tried to hide the uglier parts of their history and I don’t know why really. Well ok I do, it leads many to think and research and then when one lie is discovered it leads to questioning, then another and then their faith is destroyed. But my faith was never part of man. I am not even that surprised anymore when I find out another stupid mistake. Truth needs to be available for all. If not, your free will to make your own choices in life have been restricted. Its in all religions and there are ugly parts to them all. This is why I feel I have to seek the truth, figure it out in my head, and every time so far its been by the hands of man , not God and move forward with my journey. I can’t get stuck in a place for too long this journey is too important and too much to do and find out. It really is exciting and strengthening to keep searching and you can get those wow moments where even more makes sense in your own brain. Isnt that what its about…keep on working towards those moments. I have had a few of those studying Mormonism and I am so grateful for that. The most spiritual day I have ever felt was the day my son in law baptized us and I have had some pretty amazing spiritual days in my life.
I will never find an organized faith I believe in totally. But being able to study and share love with others about God is also important no matter if we all believe exactly the same. I can find beauty and a connection in every faith and belief system. I can be inspired by greatness in all forms. I think all my years of being deeply spiritual and my only church was the woods were I would walk through has made it easier to see things not as black and white. I had no set structure and really I am thankful for that time. Which is probably why I still do not believe in all of the ritualistic sides of churches in general. I don’t believe many anyway are necessary but its more something created by man a long time ago. Many people feel more spiritual doing them and I think that’s awesome but for me I shy away from them but the point is others feel inspired or touched spiritually and that is wonderful.
Think how hard it would be to get a group together that truly all believed the same. I have seen this just from reading different blogs….even every Mormon has different views on subjects that conflict directly with another Mormon. I have come to the conclusion that your family and their beliefs play a huge role in this….not sure but just a thought.
In the end just seek the truth. Its everywhere and use it in your life to make you a better person and practice what we all know is right….the goodness. You will come across things and you will not know what to believe or what is right and you know what….some we will never know exactly what happened. Its ok. Believe whats in your heart and if something feels wrong then that’s your answer…for now. We will find out all truths someday. Do your best, practice tolerance and genuine love for all. Never feel you have the only way to God….we each have our own unique path.
To Rose,
You are right, about this blog and its honesty and genuine concerns, it has been very good for me. I have gotten so much from each of you and I thank you for that.
Rose what is fowlers stage 4 of faith?
Well lets see, about how I am received by those in my ward. I have met some of the most kind and giving people. They treat us with respect. Of course I have to state that I am not sure how many of them know about my exact beliefs. I do know the missionaries know, the Stake President does and a few close friends at the church and all are comfortable seeming with it. We listen to each other and then either agree or not and move on. I haven’t gotten up and shared my personal believes in front of the ward but if asked to I definitely would share them.
As far as how comfortable I am in lessons taught I feel very comfortable. Many of the things really are basic kind principles and if I come across something I don’t agree with, its simple I don’t agree with it but for me I am fine with that. Others I realize may have issues with the fact I am not believing everything taught or past histories but in my head that’s an intolerance they are dealing with. I keep on the path, so much to learn and give.
Rose I am so sorry you feel scared to let people know your thoughts and when you did open up to family it didn’t go so well. It keeps you from sharing doesn’t it? Well I do know this much. In our lives we are to love unconditionally, respect others thoughts and opinions no matter if they are yours or not. Spread tolerance by displaying it. We are all Gods children no matter what. And this is a big one, you must be true to who you are and what your soul is telling you or you are cheating yourself from this journey. You are putting the brakes on so to speak. If someone has issues with your personal believes its not you that has a problem it is them. Have you ever heard this quote? “When you judge another, you do not define them, but instead you define yourself.”
Rose I can’t be anyone but who I was born to be and if others want to judge me that’s ok. I know my heart and I know when I am seeking and pondering I am not tearing my faith down but building the foundation even stronger with each step.
Religion and spirituality is not the problem its when people hold such deep convictions that they feel only they are right and everyone else is wrong is where the problem lies.
We need to remember no matter what faith we are that where man has been, mistakes will
lie.
If you ever want to ask me more or just talk I can give you my email or my facebook.
Amy:
I love your attitude and wish you the best!
If I'd made a choice to join the church knowing it had a lot of warts, I wouldn't feel the way I do now, which is betrayed. My whole life, I've been told the church is completely true, everything certain, no ugly skeletons in the closet. I was very disappointed to learn otherwise. Yet I recognize that Mormons are by and large good, caring people; and religion brings real comfort to people. I don't try to dissuade people from whatever brings them happiness (without harming innocents).
--RB
RB,
Thank you and I wish you so much happiness too.
I so understand what you are saying and I would feel the same way. We all deserve the truth. That’s the thing with trying to avoid and hide the truth, in the end the pain is worse then if it would have been upfront and stated once it was realized. This is true for every part of life…personal relationships, work, politics and religion. Its always much worse when it comes out years down the road or when no admittance or responsibility is taken.
You know what I hope and pray? That for our future generations more truth can come out and in a loving way. I mean one that truthfully explains it (the good and the ugly parts) and not just carelessly attacks it. Now you can’t make excuses for it but it can still be explained and understood. It still can inspire. It still can fill in and answer all these questions that so many have and desperately need. How can people heal otherwise? I think many LDS (its their loving nature) want to shield and protect from the harm that happens once discoveries are made. But its not working is it?
Our entire world history is made up of scars and beauty. We get angry, accept it happened, learn from it and move forward. I feel if your faith is in God and not man then why isn’t this possible here too? I mean man is filled with enlightenment, inspiration, knowledge, goodness and many are here to help guide us but we need to remember they are men, not God.
There is so much light and love in Mormonism. I love how they teach to respect all those who are enlightened such as Mother Teresa and Buddha. With enlightenment comes an awareness, insight and open-mindedness. Holding back truth is not an advancement in these areas but actually creates a narrow path to where it is we are all supposed to be heading.
Amy
I think harm really lies in the areas of unwavering convictions held by those who are non LDS and LDS alike and believe that they alone hold the ultimate truths. We as humans will never have that complete of knowledge. How could we? Wouldn’t we stop being humans on this journey if we held the knowledge that God holds? We have lots to learn yet and its exciting.
I believe and this is only my opinion that there are other ways to Heavenly Father besides the strict black and white that religion sometimes teaches. Like I said before there are some pretty amazing shades of gray.
If a man seeks and practices truth and goodness through out his life and not only understand tolerance, practices it and retains an open mind during this journey then doesn’t it make sense if there are saving graces that need to be preformed Gods glories will shine upon them and receive all that is needed? No matter what path they choose to get there. So for those who feel all are “lost” who aren’t active Mormons I do not understand that. Gods plan is for all his children and it was designed to bring optimum results and not for just a few children but all.
Now some will argue that if they didn’t accept Mormonism here on earth chance are they will not accept it after death. Why? If you are open minded and loving and truths (whatever they may be) are being revealed to you like never before and things are making sense like you have never experienced and teachings even after death continue, then why do you think these people would not say “ Oh Heavenly Father I see now” Just as on earth look at how we change our minds and view things differently daily in this life. The point is to stay on the path of goodness and truth. To keep open minds and allow the spirit to guide you. There are so many unique paths to God and he is just and loving and his plan is too. I feel it’s so much bigger then what we can even comprehend.
Where ever you can, just keep searching and seeking out those wow moments I talked about before. I have found many in the Mormon faith and each one builds that spiritual foundation stronger.
Amy, thank-you for taking the time to respond to me.
It is unfortunate that I am scared to let "TBM's" know how I really feel and what my beliefs are but I do have very valid reasons for that.
I was raised Mormon and have held leadership callings, that makes a big difference to the tolerance others have for my wavering from what I am expected to think and how I am expected to act.
When someone is new in the church there is A LOT of tolerance if your views differ from mainstream Mormonism. From my own experience (I used to think this way and discuss issues like this with-in the capacity of my callings) it is generally expected that as a new member learns and progresses in the gospel they will eventually see things the way they "should".
If I were to voice my opinions I believe I would be in one way or another "punished". I wouldn't be trusted to hold certain callings, I would be denied the right to go to the temple (I don't attend much anyways but it's more a matter of being told I'm unworthy because I can't/won't think they way my leaders want me to), I could be labeled or have assumptions made about me that are not true and would basically have my reputation with-in the Mormon community ruined. I could be wrong but I have seen it happen time and time again and have already been victim of some of these things so I don't think I'm too far off the mark.
Maybe it is my pride that is holding me back and maybe one day I will be ready to conquer it. For now I just take it one day (or one Sunday) at a time.
As for Fowler's stages of faith if you have time you should check it out.
I love your new picture Fake Pres. It was my stress relief through humor for the day :)
Have you given up speaking ill of the lord's anointed? I know that President Paternoster is only trying to further the work and mission of the church. Why do you feel the need to fight against the truth?
Sorry but pooftermeister isnt really my top priority, I have better things to do like organise my sock draw, but once Ive done that I'll continue with correcting the lies which are cleverly disguised as truth.
And he isnt the Lords annointed as he isnt a Stake President. Im not fighting against the truth, I support the truth he says, if you actually take time to read them you would know, but since you are to ignorant to read and see for yourself, that I actually quote LDS handbook of instructions and only attack his personal opinions which are not consistant with LDS teachings then you are looking pretty stupid right now huh.
Stay tuned you'll be able to read more of a shreading soon
Dear Fake President,
I'm glad you support all the truth contained in the Church-published materials introduced by Paternoster. I'm also encouraged that you disagree so fervently with these materials. It's encouraging to see a presumably active LDS person disagree with past and present Apostles and Prophets so fervently on issues where they completely contradict each other or when they are completely wrong.
I'm sad that you began a "mission" to attack a person who doesn't really exist, then quickly relegated it to less of a priority than the "sock drawer".
Are you the kind of guy that completes his church assignments really well for about 3 weeks, then dropps off the edge of the earth?
Obviously you've gone to alot of trouble to unwittingly spread the hilarities of Pres. Paternoster to a wider internet audience. It's unfortunate you've decided to reprioritize this website. It's a wonderful blog on so many levels.
So, don't do what you've always done with your callings. Magnify this calling! Give Paternoster the kick-in-the-pants he deserves, being the fictional dude he is. Every moonlighting anti-mormon like Paternoster deserves the ad hominems, non sequiturs and other logical aberrations only you can provide.
Please don't leave us hanging. Get out of your sock drawer and fulfil the calling which you have begun!
Al
taylor_alma@ymail.com
Hi Al
Thanks for the kick in the pants and the encouragement, quite refreshing actually. The truth about the sock draw is that Ive had some film editing deadlines to meet. I'll be back on the wagon kickin paternosters butt soon.
When quoting the Handbook, please start using the 2010 version instead of the 1999 version. We know how fast the gospel changes.
Thanks
How about copy and paste from the LDS.org site - Im too lazy to find actual print copy
You'd have to steal or borrow an actual print copy from a Bishopric member or Stake President.
It's a top secret manual, and isn't found on LDS.org.
However, I think you might still be able to get it from Wikileaks.
Used to be top-secret, but after the last batch of leaks, the church wisely just posted it on their official site. (This is handbook 2, not the Handbook 1 that deals with boring church administration and discipline procudures, still have to get that from unofficial source if you care.) But the specific teachings on various subjects are included, which is the part people are generally interested in anyway.
Here's the link: http://lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church
Pres. Paternoster:
I enjoyed your comment regarding the use of a different profile picture for this 'blog. As your own profile picture is a poorly photo-shopped image of someone else, the author of THIS 'blog should try using a picture of HIMSELF...
...So should you.
B.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjh0zQM3TjI
Please correct the spelling of Predident to President.
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